Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Let's talk, let's an original podcast from the Lettings Hub.
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of our podcast. Let's talk let. I'm Heidi, the CEO of the Lettings Hub, the tenant referencing business that got good at tech. Let's talk, let's is our regular roundup of news and views on a whole range of subjects spanning the private rental sector. And today we've most definitely got a good one for you. I'm delighted to be joined for a second time by Carly German, who is the CEO of our legal services partner, Woodstock. Woodstock Legal services are a really important partner for the Lettings hub as they provide all of the legal services and advice when our agents and their landlords need to make a claim on their men and legal protection policy on our eviction service, or just have a tenancy that has gone wrong or is definitely not going to plan.
Also, Carly joined me last autumn during the very first season of the pod, and in fact, was our very first podcast guest. So let's get started. A big welcome back to you, Carly. Thank you for joining me again. And for those that didn't listen to the earlier episode, please introduce yourself and tell our listeners a little bit more about you.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Thanks, Heidi. Lovely to be back.
Who am I? So, I'm the CEO of Woodstock Legal Services, you said. I'm a solicitor myself. I've been a landlord myself. So I've, you know, I've been specializing in residential land on tenant law for a long time now, at least 1012 years. So with myself and my team, we operate across the whole of England and Wales. We've seen a lot, particularly in terms of antisocial behaviour. So I think this is one of the more juicy of topics for lawyers to talk about. So I'm interested to get through this one.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Absolutely. So when you came onto the pod last time, we were talking about the delays in court, which actually has got no better in all that time, and the challenges around evicting tenants and the process. However, as you mentioned in this podcast, we're going to focus more on a more subjective topic, I guess, which is that of antisocial behaviour in housing.
Our rent and legal protection policy covers a landlord or tenant for any breach of tenancy, which includes antisocial behaviour. But it's often one of the more tricky elements to prove in court.
In 2023, the government published an action plan on a new approach for tackling antisocial behaviour, including within the housing sector. But how is antisocial behaviour defined? And can you give us some examples of the types of behaviour that can cause issues for letting agents or landlords.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a really interesting one, because if you look at the antisocial behavior action plan, they describe it as disturbance or disruption to the normal order of things, and an attitude and show of disrespect for a place and people that call it home, which is quite a low bar when you look at it. That can be interpreted in so many ways. They do go on to give some examples of intimidating behavior, drug use, vandalism, disruptive neighbors, loud music, dogs barking, et cetera. So they do go on to give some examples. The current legislation, obviously the renters reform bill, died a small death, didn't it? But we'll likely see reform. We know that. But the current legislation has two grounds that help you with antisocial behavior. So that's how the current law defines it for the purposes of landlords trying to get possession. And they've got ground seven. I won't get too technically legal on you because it's not my style, you know that. But there's the mandatory ground, and that's where a person is convicted. Somebody, a tenant is convicted of a serious offence, and that can be an offence that's committed in the property or against somebody else that is residing or visiting the property, or against a landlord or an agent, as an example. And that's a four week notice, as we currently stand. And then you have the discretionary grounds and doesn't necessarily define antisocial behavior, but it describes behavior that is likely to cause a nuisance and annoyance. So that's where we usually. Because quite often they're not convicted. Most of the time we're talking about low level antisocial behavior or serious antisocial behavior, but there's been no conviction. And, you know, these patterns of behavior can go on for a very long time before there's a conviction. And landlords quite often need to act far quicker. Sometimes you get, you know, the conviction and it's a lot easier. But, you know, most of the time we're relying on that ground 14, which is a discretionary ground. And, you know, what is a nuisance and annoyance? It's not, you know, that's so open to interpretation, it's incredibly difficult. And we see a really different approach by the courts. But, you know, the things we do tend to see are loud parties, drug use. I think they're the key ones that we see prostitution as well, and just general noise, I think. But I think drugs is a big theme.
[00:04:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Myself and Carly spent a little while just before we recorded this pod pretty much recording, we could have recorded it in terms of the conversation that we were having. Looking at kind of the definitions online, because if we look at most of the, you know, times that tenants are taken to court that you would deal with Carly, they're usually very black and white scenarios, aren't they? They're kind of, you know, rent hasn't been paid. There's a schedule of arrears, you know, that can be proven and often isn't particularly argued. But when you look at the definitions here, you've got loads to kind of take into consideration the definition of what is right and wrong. You know, where does it get hostile? Where does it get threatening? How do we just talk about how neighbors have to get involved? Like difference in area. What seems to be acceptable in one area could be quite different in another. What a landlord is willing to tolerate versus what the neighbor might be willing to tolerate. There's also kind of conflicts there. So how do you navigate your way kind of through some of that, maybe when you come up against individual cases.
[00:06:01] Speaker B: I think the key thing is evidence, and you've got a ten minute hearing, and that's not very long at all to convince a judge that they should be making somebody homeless. And you've also got. We talked earlier about this, didn't we? The complicating factors of links to mental health, neurodivergent behavior, et cetera. It's a really complex area. So evidence is really, really key. And I think reality is that at the moment we're able to use section 21, which is a bit of a silver bullet. And most of the time, I have to admit that the antisocial behavior is quite often linked to unpaid rent as well. So for us, the approach is normally, okay, what tools do we have available? Can we use a section 21? If we can, let's use that.
And if not, can we use, you know, if there's two months, renter is fantastic, but add on the social behavior as well, and social behavior, because if they fall below that threshold, you've got that, you know, up your sleeve, so to speak. But if there is in two months, sort of bringing in the, the other discretionary grounds, breach of the tenancy, and just really looking at what you can throw at that judge in ten minute hearing and making sure you've got as much evidence, you're as convincing as possible so that you've got the best possible chance in that small ten minute hearing that you can gain possession and looking at all of it from all the angles, the impact on other people as well, because reality is a judge doesn't care about the impact on a landlord, so to speak, other than if the rent's not being paid. It's about the neighborhood and the community and the impact there. It's useful for us when it's in a block because the landlord would be in breach of their lease for allowing that behavior to continue. So that's helpful for us because a judge is more like to consider the immediate impact of those people in a block rather than, you know, if you're living in a big street and you've got more distance, you know, is it such an impact on those neighbors as to people living in close proximity?
[00:07:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And you mentioned in there both the renters reform bill, which, as you said, has died to death. But we know it's going to come back and, you know, so it's only.
[00:07:59] Speaker B: 10% on a holiday.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: It's gone on holiday, yeah. How long for? We're not sure it's gone on. It's going to come back potentially it's going to come back with wings to. And obviously, we know at the moment, section 21 is often used in an antisocial behavior situation because it's just easier. It's obviously the path of least resistance, but also because you don't necessarily have to gather evidence from individuals and put them kind of in a risky or threatening situation, because obviously the judge might not rule in favor, and especially if it's a neighbor giving evidence that kind of causes a problem.
What is going to, what is the likely impact after section 21 is banned on antisocial behaviour? Are we going to see a reduction? Like, are people going to be more scared, do you think, to kind of raise it and therefore it's going to go on more without kind of conclusion, or is it actually just going to. We're going to see more cases going to court because of antisocial behavior, because there is no other way to get them there.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: Section 21 is a silver bullet for antisocial behaviour. It's very rare that we would ever bring a claim purely just based on antisocial behavior. You would never do it if you had a section 21 available, you would just use that because, like you say, it means you don't have to put the neighbors or anybody else through that system, through that process, which is long and drawn out. We know, and the bar is high. You know, you need a lot of evidence.
I think the same. The amount of cases will be the same. But, yeah, it's the biggest concern I think for me, with the renters reform, because I think no matter what you put in the legislation, and, you know, there were some improvements, we went from likely to cause antisocial behaviour to capable, which is a small improvement but still open to interpretation. But the key thing is the need for evidence and, like you say, getting people to go to court if needed. And we'll do our best to use email complaints. We can redact people's names, but quite often a judge will say, look, they need to come to court and give it evidence, which is incredibly intimidating. It's time consuming for people. Be self employed, you've got to go and sit in a courtroom all day, you're losing money. Who's going to, you know, it's very frustrating for people that are victims of antisocial behavior to have to go through that process in order to restore, you know, peace in their local community. It's very difficult.
[00:10:16] Speaker A: Do you think the grounds for evicting under antisocial behavior are going to be strengthened at all? When the reforms come in?
[00:10:23] Speaker B: There was huge amounts of conversation around it, wasn't there? And, you know, they did, you know, that was them strengthening it, I think going from likely to capable, but I don't think that solves the problem and it's about as well. It's not just what the legislation says. We're dealing with county courts here and we don't have a specialist housing court judges. 1 minute may be sitting on a family case and then they're grappling with a housing case and the legislation's going to have changed, so they need to get to grips with that. So the guidance and information and training they give to the county court judges becomes incredibly important. And yes, they talked about, you know, giving them lists of behaviours, etcetera. But like I say, it's a ten minute hearing, so that's, that's the concern. And all of these will need a hearing because section 21 won't be available. So some may put up with it if it's low level and they won't use the section 21. So you may see a situation, I think, where low level antisocial behaviour just is allowed to continue because it's too much grief and too much hassle and you can incur the legal costs of going to court with no real confidence that you're going to get it. We've seen some really extreme cases where we've had gangs, for example, attending a property regularly. It was an intense situation and we still didn't get possession on that ten minute hearing. We had to go to trial, we got possession in the end because we had all the evidence, but it's the system that's in place. That ten minute hearing is not long to establish. Very easy if it's black and white. Are they in renters? Yes, they are, but ten minutes, 15 at max to go through antisocial behaviour and all of the evidence, and if a judge hasn't done their homework and read the file, which often they don't have time to do before the hearing, then it's quite difficult in that it's just practically very difficult. No matter how good our evidence is, it's practically very difficult to get the decision on the day. So I think. Yes, I think, to answer your question, I think we'll see low level antisocial behavior may be allowed to continue because it's a bit risky to take it to court, but we will see more hearings generally because anyone that needs to get a possession order will have to go to court and have their evidence heard to establish a ground if we lose section 21. So there'll be more hearings generally. They've talked about prioritizing antisocial behaviour claims, which they absolutely need to because you're getting rid of that section 21 silver bullet. So it was incredibly difficult and like I say, it's just the evidence becomes so important. The more you can gather, the more convincing you are in that short space of time and give it your best shot to get that order on the day. And if not, you know, if you're going to go to trial that it's not going to be a wasted exercise and you can try and negotiate in that period of time to say, look, you're going to be, you know, you're going to get a possession order against you. We've got all of this evidence. And it also would also say when you're serving the notice, make sure you've gathered the evidence at that point. And I would always show that to the tenant so they know that this is a serious case, you've done your homework and it's best not for them to contest it, it's not good for them, may get worse for them if they can test it because the authorities may get involved and instead of looking at possession order, they may be looking at the police knocking at their door, et cetera. Yeah, that's counterintuitive, what I've just said, because actually, if you can involve the police very early and the local authority as well, that also is really beneficial. And I've done that personally myself when I had a property that was cuckooed and involving the police and the local authority meant we could deal with it without actually needing a possession order. And I've done cases as well where we've worked with the local authority to get closure orders on properties where there was drug use, etcetera. So engaging those authorities is also really important.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess I'm thinking about it as well. From a tenant moving into a new property. Like when you look to buy a house, you often will kind of like check out the neighborhood a bit, don't you? In terms of what are the neighbors going to be like? Sometimes you would ask the neighbors questions. I can kind of see an Airbnb situation in the future, you know, where you can kind of like rank the property in the area, like in terms of, you know, previous tenants and what they think about it. So you kind of know what you're moving into, which I don't know whether that would be a good or a bad thing, but it's quite interesting. I think everybody wants to know more, don't they, about kind of what area they're going to be living in, especially if we're now going to be living in our homes for longer, as we've seen, like tenancies extend.
So obviously one of the best ways of reducing the risk of problematic tenants is to conduct thorough vetting, I guess, before they move in. This is assuming the tenant that's moving in is the one that's going to be antisocial to ensure that the tenant has not displayed antisocial activities in the past. However, it's obviously far more easily said than done. So, for example, a tenant may have previously lived with their parents, which could mean there's no former landlord reference. Or in some cases the landlord could fail to disclose their behavior, partly because they want the problematic tenant to move out of their own property.
And there is ways within the letting sub that we kind of stop that, by the way. But assuming beyond referencing, what are the things that an agent or a landlord could practically do to minimize the impact of letting to antisocial tenants?
[00:15:25] Speaker B: Really hard, isn't it? Because we were talking about a case today with Anna and my team, and it was somebody who'd passed referencing, they had a great job and we ended up evicting them. And that was linked antisocial behavior. I think also some renter is, but the property, when it was recovered, there were drugs everywhere, but also they quite clearly were working from home and holding down a very good job. So it's not necessarily the antisocial behavior that everybody is picturing. Yes, there's the more extreme, but, you know, there are people that, you know, most of the time hold it together and then life spirals and so it is incredibly difficult. I think regular inspections and communication nipping things in the bud is really important. I think how a tenancy agreement is drafted is very useful. So there's a clear.
There are some people that are not going to read, that are not going to care, but there are others that are going to go, oh, that's not acceptable. I mean, we're talking about the low level stuff. So smoking, for example, and may just be a little bit more covert about their smoking if they realize that the agent is on it with this sort of thing. So, yeah, just a well drafted tenancy agreement, regular inspections and communication nipping things in the bud really early as best you possibly can.
[00:16:38] Speaker A: Yeah. We also spoke about the fact that it could be that there's obviously the tenant in the property and therefore the antisocial behaviour is kind of affecting neighbours. But also, you know, I've seen on, you know, social media groups and also just from talking to some of our own agents when we've kind of ran events in the past, we've ended up talking about it or even some of the examples we've had on the pod, actually, when people kind of talk about things that have happened, there's antisocial behavior that tenants kind of inflict on the agent.
[00:17:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: So do you ever get involved in any kind of cases that, you know, where the landlord is a little bit oblivious or the neighbors have never kind of raised an issue, but how the tenant behaves is definitely not. And I'm going to kind of put in brackets normal.
[00:17:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And yeah, I think a lot of the time we see it in the communication, the written communication between the tenant and the agent and you realize that, you know, it's tantamount to harassment and just incredibly difficult, sometimes abusive as well. So. And that normally comes out once we've never evicted because an agent's struggling with them because unfortunately some agents do just feel it's part of their job to have to put up with it, you know, but it shouldn't be. But you then having to sway the landlord to evict a paying tenant, that may only be, you know, causing difficulties for the agent. So that's difficult, isn't it? But yeah, we do see it and like I say, I think quite often that's in written communication. But I've heard of other examples as well, you know, them attending properties. Sorry, attending the offices of agents and causing, you know, serious problems, particularly if they're based locally. They're their point of contact, aren't they?
[00:18:16] Speaker A: And some of the, you know, some of the situations that, you know, we've heard about or, you know, you know, attendance that then don't even become tenants, you know, they're just people that have, you know, they've done viewings with potentially that become, you know, quite antisocial, I suppose, based on, you know, whatever happens. There's an example of one tenant who used to kind of visit the office fairly regularly, walk in, try and have a conversation with them, sit on the chair, wet himself and then leave, you know, and they got so used to it, they just used to clear it up and kind of, you know, always knew that he was coming in. That was bizarre to me, listening to that, but was so normal for them. And I was just like, crikey, you know, that's. That's kind of way out of hand. But going back to what we were saying, I suppose it comes back to the no regard for right or wrong, you know, ignoring people's rights or feelings. And, you know, what is right to one person is. Maybe it is subjective. That's kind of the thing, isn't it? It's really, it's really difficult.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: It's a big problem.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: So if you do find yourself then in a position of having the tenant who is displaying antisocial behaviour or you've had a complaint, what are the next steps you should take as an agent or a landlord?
[00:19:27] Speaker B: Look at all the evidence you've got and look at gathering more evidence. Speak to neighbours, speak to the local authority, police, escalate it and if there is any crime reference numbers you can gather. Very useful. Sometimes police are very cooperative, sometimes they're nothing. Consider whether a closure order might be an option and you can work with the local authority. And what can happen is you can provide evidence to the local authority so they can do their bit, get the closure order and the closure order may help you get your possession so you can run the two concurrently and support each other in that process. But, you know, it's the low level one. Looking at all of your options and seeing if, you know, make the most of it. And, you know, I don't advocate people going out and serving section 21s in a hurry before the reforms, but if you do have a problematic tenancy, don't sit on it now.
You know, you've got to think about, you know, the surrounding neighborhood and it could be much more difficult when you lose that section 21 to deal with the low level antisocial behavior. So gather that evidence, serve the notice as soon as you possibly can. Make sure that notice is perfectly drafted. I think you've probably heard me grumble before that we see notices that are invalid for the smallest of things and it doesn't take much for a judge to go even in, like I say, that 1015 minutes hearing. Oh, I'm not sure about that. Our delay. Let's go to trial. I'm not sure about that notice. Make sure you've got solid evidence that it was served and properly served. And if you're going on the grounds of antisocial behavior, that you've got that evidence without notice, like I said earlier, so that the tenant knows you're serious, you've done your homework, and they know that there's more problems coming if they should drag their heels. But I think you have to be really aware and do your homework because the link with antisocial behavior and mental health is huge. And we know that's a problem that's not going away. In fact, it's getting worse. So I think you have to be really aware of what the causes of that behaviour are as well.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: But you definitely talk to the tenant. Then I guess in the first instance you've got to kind of make them aware that it's been brought to, you know, been brought to your attention as the agent of a landlord or you've noticed it, whichever it is, because it might be that they are just unaware or they, you know, they thought they might get away with it. So try and resolve it in the first instance, I would guess.
[00:21:35] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And we talk about that a lot. I think it's really important communication and seeing if you can come to a resolution on some of the small, particularly the smaller ones. I mean, it's very difficult if you've got gangs turning up and we've had instances of people throwing drugs off balconies, setting fires on balconies. Yeah. Obviously an agent needs to write to them and say, this behavior is absolutely unacceptable, you're in breach of your tenancy and a notice is likely to be served. But if it's the low level staff and you haven't quite got enough to serve a notice, then keep recording that communication, because a, it may resolve it earlier, but b, it's very useful to put in front of a judge, if you can say, look, we've been writing to them for six months about this. They've been referred to the clauses in the tenancy agreement. They've been explaining how they're upsetting neighbors. We've, you know, directed them to the behavior that's called, that we consider to be antisocial and they still have done nothing. And we've been to local authority and we've been to, you know, directed them in terms of support for mental health and that sort of thing, and they've done nothing. I think that can be really helpful.
[00:22:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And I guess you're like in any kind of communication process, really, whether it's with an employee or anything else, you would verbally talk to them, make sure that they're aware of it, and then back it up with an email or a letter.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: Back up an email, yeah, or make a note of your call.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: Okay. So obviously an agent doesn't always want, I guess, negative associations with tenants who have antisocial behaviour tendencies, particularly within their local communities where they're well respected and obviously trying to build a business and a brand. But if they're concerned about the tenant's behavior, what, any tips I suppose you could give them in terms of how they can protect their own reputation and their kind of standing, I guess, within the community to do the right thing?
[00:23:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it's hard, isn't it? And I think that's going to be a bigger challenge for certain agents in certain locations. And you do, you know, unfortunately there are, you know, certain communities, rental communities, that there tend to be more problems. We know that and there's no getting away from that. And it's very difficult. And I think it's really important that they are engaging with the local forums. I know where I am, there's a landlord forum, an agent forum. So the big letting agents are on there, they're engaging with the local authority. I'm on there. So we all get together and they're all understanding. Okay, how can you solve these problems together? And I think that's really important so that you're not just seem to be constantly letting to people with more difficulties and allowing antisocial behavior to run through the communities and not doing anything about it. So I think engaging is really important and looking at what support is out there so that you're being seen to be protecting the community. I think that's what it's all about. Like I say, when you go to court, yes, the judge is going to be slightly sympathetic to the landlord, but they're really considering the local community, not the landlord.
[00:24:19] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. And we've kind of talked about a few examples today, but I'm going to ask you for a couple of specific ones. Just to kind of explain to the audience really that it's, it's kind of really wide in terms of antisocial behavior is so, you know, you've got the standard brothels, drug dens, which actually is pretty black and white. And actually, up until the point that that is raised, usually they're paying the rent on time. They're being a good tenant because they very much want to go under the radar in terms of anything else. And then there's lots of little small problems continually kind of bubbling along. Let's take those kind of two different groups and kind of give us an example that you've dealt with in each, if you could. Carly, just, yeah, I think smoking is.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: One that people are quite often, they're smoking in a property and yes, they're in breach of their tenancy. I can't see a judge is ever going to evict somebody for smoking in the property. So they're really difficult ones. And yeah, I get it. You know, they're damaging the property. It's incredibly frustrating and it can cause long term damage. But without other stuff, you may get a possession order. But that's a big ask to make somebody homeless on the base of their smoking. They're likely to get, you know, told off in court. And, you know, I've had others where parking issues can be a big one, which is one you wouldn't think about. And that's really difficult. I've had people tampering with barriers in leasehold blocks, the communal parking, etcetera. And actually we did a section 21 on that one because I was like, that's really, you know, a, it's tricky to prove. It's low level, it's irritating. I get it. But we're not talking about drugs, prostitution, crazy wild parties.
[00:25:54] Speaker A: Could be wild.
[00:25:55] Speaker B: Exactly. You know, so the bar on, you know, the bar is quite high. And then, you know, like you say, we get the more extreme examples I talked about the one if somebody's throwing suspicious powder off balconies and bricks a bit, not just light sprinklings, you know, fires on balconies. And, you know, cuckooing is a, is a huge concern. And we had a really interesting conversation about this with cuckooing because it is causing a nuisance annoyance, but in theory, the person, the tenant of is a victim. And have they allowed that behavior? So are they culpable? Is it, you know, are they at fault or are they a victim? And that becomes a little bit tricky. So you do need to be careful there. And again, you know, I've had my own property, cuckoo, twice. What are the chances?
[00:26:41] Speaker A: Just explain to us what cuckoo is, because some of them might not know in terms of how it's kind of taken over.
[00:26:47] Speaker B: So it is where county lines normally drug dealers, a gang of drug dealers will move into a property and essentially take it over from the tenant that's living in that property. And it tends to happen, yes. Often when that tenant may be a drug user or have an issue with drugs themselves because they're connected to that community or that they know they're a vulnerable adult. And we had it. My husband is a plumbing and heating engineer, so he went around to do some repairs, just regular maintenance, and he said, just bizarre. It's like she's got friends around, but she's not really engaging with him. And he couldn't put his finger on it. And this is a tenant we'd had. She's a vulnerable adult, but she'd been in a property, rent was paid by local authority, very little problems with it. And he's just a bit bizarre. But all fine. Rent was still being paid and then away having a lovely weekend in London. We get a call from the police to say, we've raided your property. The door's been ripped off, she's been removed, it's been sealed up, and it's a huge problem. It's a crack den in there. And you're like, wow. And this is a property. You know, my husband had spent a lot of money. It's only a little property, but takes pride in his work and he's made it really lovely for her. And that's incredible. It's really hard to deal with, but I think the experience I've had was that, okay, so she needs to go somewhere safe. Let's work with the local authority and the police. She can't go back. Let's surrender the tenancy, let's make sure the property is secure. But if the police hadn't have acted, I might have had a problem because I'd have needed to have got her out. But I may have been left with them in the property. You know, it's very difficult. So that's why engaging with the local authority and the police in those situations is really, really important. And the problem is it happened again, because they will know that that's the type of tenant that goes in that property. So our next advice was to have, instead of having. We worked really closely with the local authority, had grants to redo the property up and source a tenant through them. Then they said, because of the. The area was in. And this is why it's really important for landlords to really consider where they're letting.
Some areas will come naturally with more problems than others. They said that the next tenant they would like to source for that area would be prison leavers because they are, in theory, more robust and less likely to be manipulated by counter lined drug dealers. So it is really interesting and it's a problem that is growing and landlords need to protect themselves against it. But you can see there the antisocial behavior in part is probably caused by the tenant, but they're also a victim and she's got mental health issues, et cetera.
[00:29:13] Speaker A: So it's complex and complex. That's the thing. That's why I was going to kind of end by saying all of these scenarios are never simple, hence why, you know, engaging with the right kind of help as an agent or a landlord. If you're faced with that situation, getting early advice, just talking it through and making sure you know that you're following the right process to stand the best chance of the outcome that you want, I guess becomes pretty critical in those scenarios. Yeah.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: And the last thing I would say is that we have seen sort of absent landlords that don't act and it can cause a real problem when they've, obviously, they've got a lease in a property. So, you know, don't bury your head in the sand, don't let it rumble along, act early because it could cause you as a landlord even more problems and cost you even more money if you don't, you know, act quickly.
[00:30:04] Speaker A: Yeah. So thank you so much, Carly. I think if reform comes in, we're definitely going to invite you back again for several pods. Probably, we'll probably run a series.
But antisocial behaviour, I can see, is going to become a real hot topic then, because the challenge of getting a property back when a section 21 doesn't exist is a whole other matter.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: It is.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: But before you go, as you know, and as you will remember actually from last time, we always end every podcast by asking our guests for a funny story or anecdote from their time. When the property sector last time, you made us all laugh when you told us about the tenant that sued their landlord over a lost cat.
Do you have another one? I'm sure you do, actually. I'm sure you come across things all the time, but do you have another one to end today? For our listeners, I think the funniest.
[00:30:54] Speaker B: One is that we've all spent five years talking about the renters reform bill and then it disappeared. That's probably the funniest thing that's happened to me. But I think, do you know what can be quite amusing and sometimes a little bit cringe and uncomfortable is when you're preparing some of this quite controversial evidence. Sometimes some of the pictures you have to exist bit, the videos we've watched of, you know, prostitutes coming in and out of properties, and you've had to sit and watch lots of it. And yes, it's a real eye opener. And then you have to present it to a judge. And sometimes they're older, often they're male. And actually, it can be quite uncomfortable sort of sitting there and going through this quite explicit evidence with them. I think it makes your job a little bit more juicy than doing a renter ears claim, put it that way.
[00:31:34] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure it does. Let's just kind of ask you one final question on venture. I know we touched earlier then. Yeah, it's gone. When do you think it will come back?
[00:31:45] Speaker B: Oh, who knows? I mean, the way lab were talking and you look at all of the polls, that's what we're expecting, isn't it, that they were going to do things very quickly. But I think the reality is that's. That's impossible, isn't it? You know, they talked about doing on day one, getting rid of section 21. So I don't know. You just don't know, do you? I can't expect it's going to take very long because lots of the work had been done and they weren't far off being on a similar page. But I suspect it will come back with labor, with things that probably aren't as favorable to landlords. I really hope that some of the progress they made is not lost and we don't go backwards. And like I say, antisocial behavior is probably one of my biggest concerns. Yeah, we shall see.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: We will. We shall see. We shall see. And for all of our listeners, to ensure you never miss an episode of let's Talk, let's please follow us on Spotify or wherever you listen to your pods. And please leave us a review. Thank you all so much for listening. And a big thank you to you, Carly.
Let's talk. Let's.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: An original podcast from the lettings Hub.
