Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Let's Talk let's an original podcast from the Lettings Hub.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: Hello and welcome to the latest episode of our podcast, let's Talk let. It's the first of 2025, so a happy new year to you all. I'm Heidi, I'm the CEO of the Lettings Hub, the tenant referencing business that got good at tech. And let's Talk let's is our regular roundup of news and views on a whole range of subjects spanning the property rented sector and we start 2025 with a bang. In this session I'm delighted to be joined by Sophie Lang, who is the founder and director of the Cornwall based letting agency Lang Llewellyn Lang. Llewellyn is a business celebrating or has just celebrated in November its second birthday. So a massive congratulations to you Sophie and your team on this milestone. But Sophie originally set up a lettings division for another Cornish agency. She's also a property mark advisory panel member and has clearly been a very busy and successful lady. So welcome to you, Sophie. Please introduce yourself and tell our listeners a little bit more about you before we start with the questions.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: Yeah, hi, I'm Sophie, I'm based down in Cornwall. Yeah, it's been a busy few years, Heidi, I think, but yeah, I mean, what else can I say? I'm going to turn 40 this year. We've, I've got two young children who are about to turn seven and four and yeah, and now me and my business partner Rhiannon run Langlor island down in Cornwall.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Excellent. So your journey into property is quite different actually compared with many of our podcasts as you came straight into the industry from university and then after five years you then founded your own agency which is obviously, you know, rocketed since did you always want to work in the industry And I'm interested, kind of I suppose to learn what attracted you and how that journey came about.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean obviously as a little girl lettings wasn't top of the list I don't think. But I have always been interested in law. Was my, my, my original trajectory. I went to uni and did my law degree and that was always kind of what I wanted to do. Unfortunately, Cornwall isn't the place to be able to do that easily because it's such a small pool. So I got my degree and I came back and personal circumstances, I was helping my mum out as well, who's single parent with my brother and I fell into an admin part time administration job for a small independent agency based in Falmouth where I'm from. And. And it grew from there. And I think I. I liked it because there's so much legal stuff involved in lettings, even back then, which, you know, was the late noughties, which didn't really have a lot. It was basically a gas safety and a tenancy agreement and obviously it's growing from there. But I was attracted to the legal, the logic side of it and the paperwork side, and I eventually went full time and I did go quite gung ho in the industry. I enjoyed it and I did well at it and I did fall in love with it and then I continued it and. And then I'm still here.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: And I guess, you know, your background, you know, from university, I mean, it's probably a very stereotypical thing to say, but I don't imagine there's too many, you know, requirements for law in Cornwall. It seems such a kind of a nice place where there's so many things that kind of go to plan, really. But I suppose, you know, transferring those skills, like you say, to lettings in terms of the legislation that we're governed by and more and more and more, I suppose if you can get your head into that and get into the manuals and understand it all really well, it's probably definitely been one of the things that's helped your success, would you say?
[00:03:55] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I'm known as a bit of a legal nerd. I think that's the best letting. Some legal nerd, I think my colleagues would probably say about me. I mean, to the point. I was in labor with my first son seven years ago and I was reading the EPC legislation that just been released and my midwife was like, well, are you doing?
I just find it really interesting. But it's nice because I get to read it and then I can kind of summarize it back to the team and kind of understand it a bit more.
But no, I do enjoy it. I've got quite a. I was always quite academic and I've always liked that kind of stuff. And it means I can write our tenancy agreements and our terms of business pretty confidently. Although I always refer back to legal, obviously, proper legal people.
[00:04:36] Speaker B: Yeah. But I guess, you know, with the big changes coming, you're going to be in your element. You're going to have a great start to the year with lots of things to wade through. It's funny, I had a client in.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: Yesterday who wanted to come and talk about it and they were worried and he was laughing at me and he was like, you seem really excited about it. And I was like, well, excited is probably not the right word, but I'm interested about it and I think there's ways we can deal with it and I think it's actually going to be a bit of an opportunity for a lot of agents and landlords. I suppose I come at it a slightly different angle, but being able to explain it to clients is extremely beneficial.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I, I first met Sophie about a year, year and a bit ago now at the first Agent Rainmaker event that we went to as the lettings hub, as an exhibitor. And for anyone that hasn't been to that event, you need to go because it's, it's, it's hard to explain unless you're there, but it's very high energy. There's definitely kind of a real vibe about it. And Sophie and Rhiannon were near enough there as celebrity guests because they had. Well, I'll let Sophie explain it. But had, had hit so many of the milestones, I guess, on, on that chart. How did you get into all of that, Sophie?
[00:05:46] Speaker A: It's funny, we. When Rhiannon and I. It's actually Rhiannon, my business partner, who went to a couple of Sally Lawson's events, training events, and she said to me at the time, we need to look at this when we launch Langlo, because they're looking at it in a different way and it is about growth and there's a lot of stuff in lettings kind of weighing you down on the compliance side, which is you have to tick these boxes. But not many people look at actually this is a business and it needs to be profitable and it needs to grow. And Sally Lawson and Agent Rainbow could come at it from that angle, as in be successful at what you do. You're good letting agents. We can, we don't need to teach you that, but we can teach how to run a business, which is a very different skill set to being a letting agent. So Rhiannon got me to go to one of the events and I'm a bit of a quieter version, me and Maria, quite opposites, which works really well in our business relationship. But I walked into that room and with the loud music and the flashing lights and all of this stuff going on, like, what is this? And I sat in the back very quietly. But once I stripped out all of that, all of the kind of pizzazz around it, which I think is really good because it's a high energy event. A lot of letting events can be quite boring, like, you know, quite compliance heavy. So it was nice Once I stripped it back, the logic of this is what you need to do to help your business grow and the kind of strategies involved. I was really into that side of it. And yeah, we did one of the first things we did when we launched Lang Llewellyn. So we bought the lettings book from our previous employer.
We joined Agent Rainmaker as one of their kind of members. And yeah, really, we've kind of gone strength and strength from there and quite quickly.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember that event because we had a finance director.
He's a great guy, but obviously sits quite quietly in the corner most days. And I was like, do you know what?
[00:07:38] Speaker A: I think you need to get out.
[00:07:39] Speaker B: And about, you know, a bit more. You need to see what the industry is all about. I know, I'll take you with us when we go to the next event. And we took him to Rainmaker and I think it blew his mind. He just wanted to be at the back in the corner. And I was like, I can promise you we. They're not normally like this, Nick. Like, you know, it is actually quite different, but it was quite funny to see him there. So he definitely felt uncomfortable, but came to quite love it by the end and was definitely supported the amount that we spend on events ever since. So it clearly worked.
[00:08:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: But I guess as well as there's obviously lots of achievements and I guess a huge amount of pride that I hope you have along the way, your journey hasn't always been easy and there's definitely been some quite big bumps in the road for you. Would you mind kind of talking to us a little bit about that?
[00:08:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, like I said, you can look at things in an overview and, you know, you can say we went from this to this and it's all very positive and it's all exciting and I'm not saying that none of that stuff has been exciting, but there has been like really hard times. It is not easy. This job isn't easy. Growing a business, any business, isn't easy. And I suppose I haven't talked about this openly public. It is public knowledge, but it's not. But my previous employer didn't end on the best of basis. We had an issue with one of our directors in that company who went to jail for harassment and threats against myself and some of the other people in the company. And, you know, that started to break down and that's when Ri and I saw an opportunity of. We have. She was my branch manager at the time. I was the director of letting. She was branch manager and we saw an opportunity to we could get out from under someone else's feet and launch this on our own. And we had big plans, but we were stunted by obviously not owning the business and not being able to make those sorts of decisions. And we, we took the step to move out from it and that was a really quite difficult time for all of us. Me especially, because we were going through this situation with court and police and restraining orders and it was, it was pretty horrific.
And we kind of came out of that, the other side and made some big risky moves to take over the business and then launch it as Lang Llewellyn. And since then it's been lovely because we've come out the other side and now we've got freedom and we can show what we're really capable of.
[00:09:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you think actually there's some. I suppose I believe that in. If you've kind of experienced adverse situations, they do teach you so much than a smoother path and you come out stronger and you kind of, I suppose, realize what you're fighting for, what you're aiming for, your ambitions become bigger. Do you think therefore, when you look back, although I'm sure it was an absolute horrific time, that there was not some good that came out of it. That sounds totally the wrong way around but, but actually that it's really spurred you on?
[00:10:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't be the person I am today without it, I think. Yeah. Like no one's life is overly smooth and what happens to you kind of shapes you. I mean, Bri and I will be the first say we come from extremely humble backgrounds, both kind of single mothers living in single mother households. But you know, we weren't wealthy families. We really, our parents, our mums had to graft and we've, we're stepping into this thing where we're now these business owners and it's quite out of the world. I was the first person in my family to ever go to university and I worked my balls off to go. I, I worked three jobs and you know, and you. But those things shape you. And even the end of Lewis Horton was. It shaped me to who I am today. So I have to be grateful for that because, because I wouldn't, I don't think I'd be in the same place. So, you know, negative things happen and things kind of pull you back. But it's. I feel it's to push you forward as the ultimate aim and you have to take those negative experiences and get the positive out of them. And I think that's what we've really done with Langlow. Ellen?
[00:11:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's, I think you're so inspiring, Sophie. And I think there'll be people that are listening that, you know, there's always good days and there and bad days. Like you say, we're not in an easy industry. It, you know, nothing always goes perfectly to plan and it's quite fast paced and there's always things that you can't predict gonna happen right around the corner. So I'm sure there'll be people that maybe are having an off day today that will just kind of put that back into perspective.
One of the things that has made your business so successful over these last couple of years is that you've been really successful at acquiring other lettings businesses along the way. And that's usually something that's. That, I guess businesses venture into a bit later on down the line rather than from the, from the very beginning. So how, how does, did that become a thing and how do you incorporate, I guess those portfolios or those businesses very quickly in, into your business?
[00:12:20] Speaker A: I mean, I suppose when we took over the. So we bought the lettings book from Lewis Horton does what we did, we did like a management buyout. At that time, I was. We were really in this really difficult period and we didn't know really what to do. We kind of knew we were either. We had two options. We either had to take over the business we're in or we had to start from scratch. I was adverse to starting from scratch because I'd started that department from scratch, sat on my own on a laptop on a sofa in 2011. And I didn't, I didn't really want to go back to that. But at the same time, I knew it was going to be a challenge because like I said, me and Re come from humble backgrounds. We're. We're not, we don't have floods of money. We're not, we're not sat there, you know, waiting. And it was because I met, we actually met Lucy Noon, who the industry will know well, who does acquisitions. And I reached out to her on socials because I knew she did brokering, but she generally works for the seller. So I said, well, we're actually looking to be a buyer. And we had a few meetings with her and we looked at other options and she kind of guided us through and then we managed to do it. I'm not saying it was easy. It's the hardest year of my life trying to get funding together. We lost three lots of funding because of the budgets and the kind of financial times were really hard. Traditional banks wouldn't help us. It was a real struggle. And there was one point where I was just sat on the floor and I was like, this is. This is never going to happen. And then. But somehow we managed it and it was through networking and, and really grafting. Re and I put in a lot of time and effort to. To push ourselves through that and we managed to purchase the company and then it kind of gave us a bit of a bug of acquisition is really a really great way to grow in the current market. We've got people know in lettings at the moment we're losing levels because of the current conditions and there's more agents out there than there's ever been before. And there's a bit of a Scrabble round of low fee, get the instruction. And that's not what we wanted to do because we feel we're worth a higher fee. So we looked at the acquisition room. We found quite a lot especially, I mean it's probably in other areas as well. But in Cornwall a lot of agents were retiring or getting to that age or didn't want to deal with it anymore. And we saw an opportunity where if we could grasp funding, then why shouldn't we grow through acquisition? And we did do quite quickly. I think we did four in our first 12 months, which I know is mad.
I mean they range from small portfolios of about 50 properties, but we did two big ones which was 300 properties units per unit. And we did that quite quickly. And we've learned because we did it quickly. We made a lot of mistakes, as we always do. We've learned from our mistakes. But it has been a way that we've been able to bolster this business up quite quickly. But we've had to do it well. And that was what we wanted to do. We didn't just want to smash and grab, we wanted to make sure we took time over every business and made sure it had the attention it needed.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: Excellent. And so is that the future too? Is that kind of what you're going to continue to do or is it as the opportunities kind of get. Have you become known, I suppose in the area for, you know, the ones to go to if anyone is looking to retire or, you know, just wants to pursue sales or.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: We did a bit. We had a couple actually approach us of the four that we purchased because we got reputation first of all for buying ourselves if we can't buy ourselves. We did five and we had people Approach us saying, look, we're, we're looking to retire. We like you guys, could we have a chat? And that was nice because I know from running and starting a business of scratch, it's your baby. So selling it is a big decision and you want the right person. And that's kind of what we've wanted to show to people that we've acquired, is that we're here to look after the business. We're not a faceless entity that's just buying up for the sake of buying. We actually care about the clients and want to give them a good service. So, yeah, we have become a bit known and yeah, of course it's in the future. I'd be stupid to say it's not because I think with the. Also Labour's budget announcement in October, with taxation changing for sellers of businesses that we're seeing, actually more people probably come to the market now that were maybe looking to retire in five years and now pulling those plans forward because of the tax, they want to pay less tax.
So, yeah, I am under a couple of NDAs at the moment, but there is growth in the Future, definitely.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: So 2025 is going to be another great year, which is brilliant. And I imagine the opportunity may come around like a bit of a snowball in the fact that with so much legislation changing, some agents might just realize it's too much. You know, they don't want to go through that next level of change in their business, you know, and updating everything might be right up your street in the legal style, I think as well.
[00:17:14] Speaker A: Something we realized is, like when we were setting up our business is pricing structures are changing for agents, they have to change. Like when the tenant fee band came in, you we, a lot of agents lost a big chunk of bottom line from losing those sorts of fees and we're going to see that again. We're going to lose renew fees, we're going to potentially lose, you know, rent increase fees or, you know, whatever your structure may be.
So we making our business more robust to make sure that we're looking at alternative income streams and things. So we are not just relying on that monthly monthly margin and other agencies haven't yet done that. And so they are feeling the pinch quite a lot, which is. And they don't want to go through those changes, like you said, because it is a. It's a lot of graph to get these changes done and a lot of people don't. So, yeah, possibly. I mean, we will never acquire for the sake of acquiring that. That's not how it's ever worked for us. It has to be the right business, the right team, the right portfolio and we'll work hard at the beginning to make sure that we align with them currently. So, you know, it makes sense.
But yeah, we will see more come to the market, I think.
[00:18:21] Speaker B: Excellent. Well, good luck to you and your team. I'm sure you'll be hugely successful again in this year and if we do a pod at the start of next year, just imagine what it might look like. Goodness knows. One of the things that I know you're also passionate about is fair representation in the property sector for women.
And it's. I think that's definitely been a theme actually across 2024, where the voice of women in property has definitely become louder and there's been more notice taken. Please share with our listeners your views because I do think they're really important.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that, I mean it's no secret in Women in property has obviously been underrepresented for a long period of time. I do think there's a shift happening which is good to see.
I've just become a co chair of the lettings division for women in residential property and obviously we've also. I've done bits or what, you know, I know a lot of the ladies that run the Women in State agency and their confidence conference has been an amazing add to the. To the conference season. It's really good to see and it's, it's asking better of the industry such as panel. I mean, I know is a big, a big draw on social media. Whenever a panel's announced and it's all the same men or whatever it may be, it's. It's asking more for men and women to ask for better representation on these and I don't think that people should be on the panel because of their gender. That's not what we're saying. I just think that, that there are a lot of female voices out there that are important and need to be given the opportunity and the space to be able to be heard and be involved in those panels. And it's simple things like if I get asked on a panel, I generally ask who else is on the panel because it's good to know. And if I think that, you know, that it's not there's no women or that it's unbalanced or that there's anything missing, then I'll speak up about it, which a lot of people haven't done previously. And I know Ankara Truman, obviously head of lettings in Andrews, she's creating an amazing list of women in our industry who are happy to talk on panels and confident to talk on panels and be included in the conversation. So at least there's someone you can go to, because I know it's difficult when you know, if someone's setting up a panel to know who to include and who would be happy to be included, because not everybody wants to be on a panel. You know, it does take the kind of person who wants to do that and is happy to do it. So I appreciate that. So it's good to get a tool out there so people know these names and there's a bit of a directory to go to to make sure you're events and webinars and panels are well balanced and that you're. You're kind of looking at the whole industry as a whole, rather than a little snippet of that industry.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: And obviously, I know we've kind of alluded to it a little bit throughout the pod, but there is going to be massive change this year.
Any tips, any advice, any kind of of your key thoughts, what going to be the real pivotal changes coming and how the industry is going to adapt to those or how the industry needs to adapt to them, I guess.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: Exactly. I mean, this is the biggest year for lettings industry since the 80s. I mean, we've never had a piece. I mean, we've had legislation come in that tweaks here and there and changes small bits and pieces, but this is the first big piece of legislation that's going to change everything we do from the moment we meet a vendor, a landlord for the first time to a tenant vacating. Every single process we do is affected by this new, this new set of laws. Obviously it goes back. I think when this goes out, it would have gone back into the House of Commons the day before.
So we're kind of, although we don't have a crystal ball, we're pretty set on what's going to be happening. And we are looking at October 2025 for this coming in. Agents need to be taking action now and that includes looking at their processes, their fee structures, their terms of business especially, and how they work with their clients, educating their clients. So many landlords are scared. A lot of landlords are leaving because of the uncertainty. But if you've got a good agent who's advising you, you shouldn't be scared because there is management of this new legislation and there are things to negate. I know there's the big clickbait headlines, but actually, if you look into the nitty gritty.
Landlords are actually going to be in okay stead. Rents are at their highest, rental yields are still at their highest. So it's still good to be an investor in this market. You just need to be guided through and know what you're doing. And agents are going to absolutely key with the legislation coming in on guiding good agents, on guiding clients and landlords through it.
As you can see. I'm quite excited about it as a legal nerd in me coming out again, but I just think agents need to not be putting their head in the sand and know this is happening. Don't think, oh well, it's not through yet, they're going to change it. Labor are pretty set on not changing what's currently in there. House and Lords are yet to have a say, but I think they've got Labour have got majority. I think that we're going to see this come in. So we need to embrace it and we need to make, you know, make the best of it and get set now ready for it. I mean, anyone who's a student agent needs to already be thinking about it because our students are signing contracts that are going to be affected by this law coming in October. So agents need to be getting prepped and reaching out if they're to their networks, if they're unsure and finding out what other people are doing. I think collaboration has always been massive for me. I don't understand why agents avoid each other sometimes. I know it's not as much like that anymore with networking, but we're all in this together and it can only be good for all of us if we collaborate and we get our ducks in a row and, and, and work together on it. So that's why I like things like Property Mark. It brings agents together to share ideas and find out what's going on in the world and make that are going to help us all. So I think you need to get involved in those sorts of organizations to get yourself prepared for me, no matter.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: How we feel about it, we're not going to change it. So we have to embrace it, we have to take it as an opportunity. And look, you know, it was a fairly dark time before the Tenant Fees act came in and obviously that had a much longer running time actually, didn't it? It was talked about for many, many years before it came into force, but actually the industry hasn't fallen apart like you say. Rents are still at the highest, landlords are still willing to invest, but it's about making sure the messaging and the Communication, I think, is absolutely key because if you can reassure landlords, there's actually a good path through this. That's my own personal opinion.
So just before we finish and I ask you for a funny story, which is always kind of how we end. Do you have any, I suppose, top tips for people just to be successful, I guess, successful at what they do? What, what advice would you give?
[00:25:13] Speaker A: I mean, if you want to be really successful, what you. You've got to immerse yourself in it. I think you need to know that you don't know everything, that you are always learning. I don't think any of us stop learning. I love learning. I love reading and talking to other people. And one of the best things I ever did was getting out of my Cornwall bubble and going out to see other agents around the country and going to events and meeting people and talking. Because you, like said, collaboration just grows you as a person.
Everyone's doing something slightly different in your tidbits, but also if you go out to meet other agencies, meets them, don't just take what they're saying, also give back and share what you're doing. That works. And I think that it will make for a better industry if we're more like that.
[00:25:58] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%.
So thank you very much, Sophie. It's really, it's super to listen to you and you've got a lovely voice actually, for a pod. So I think everyone's gonna be, you know, dreaming away as they listen to this. But before you go, our regular listeners of let's Talk let's will know that we always end the pod by asking our guests for a funny story or anecdote.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: Well, I had a long think about this because obviously in a long career there's many, many, and I'm sure all of us could club together and write some sort of book on hilarious scenarios. I mean, obviously we deal with a lot of students and things like that, so I could tell you a billion stories about hilarious students, but the one that the team always come back to me on because they find it fascinating is one years ago, which is still to this day, the strangest reason I have had a tenant come to me for early surrender of a fixed term lease and that was because they had a poltergeist.
So I'm a non believer in things like that. So I had a phone call from his mother to say that his son was being terrorized by a ghost and they needed to break tenancy or get an exorcist into the property.
I stuck very hard to Keep a straight face. And I explained, I asked what this pod ghost was doing, apparently slamming doors, pulling at clothes and being a nuisance.
I'd never had any reports of this house before. I'd managed it for years.
But the mum was deadly serious and she'd even. She got me a telephone number for a priest who was happy to come in, but she wanted the landlord to pay for his time or release and I had to deal with this situation. And still to this day, it's the oddest reason I've had someone to break tenancy and I did have to let this woman down quite gently of, you know, I, I, this isn't gonna fly as a reason and I, I don't believe, I mean, if you feel there's a poltergeist, maybe you could get a priest in if you'd like. And, but yeah, that was, that was amusing. I had to deal with many meetings with many guarantors of that property about a potential ghost.
[00:28:00] Speaker B: Oh, wow. It's, it's funny, isn't it? Because that's a classic example of how do you prove anything like, you know what I mean? So it's like, it's a very bizarre situation. Anyway, it might have been friendly, who knows?
[00:28:12] Speaker A: I mean, I don't know. She claimed not. But it was a very surreal conversation that I had to have with someone.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: Excellent. Well, for all of our listeners, a massive thank you to you, Sophie. To ensure you never miss an episode of let's Talk Let, please follow us on Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast. Please leave us a review and thank you all very much for listening.
[00:28:37] Speaker A: Let's Talk let's an original podcast from the Lettings Hub.
