Episode Transcript
[00:00:11] Speaker A: Let's Talk lets, an original podcast from the Lettings Hub.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: Hello and welcome back to the first.
[00:00:16] Speaker A: And the fourth series of our podcast, lets talk. Lets. Im Heidi Sheckle, the CEO of the lettings hub, and lets talk. Lets is our regular roundup of news and views on a whole range of subjects spanning the private rented sector. It feels like we've had quite a long summer break, so we're definitely pleased to be back.
And for today's podcast, I'm thrilled to be joined by Sian Heming Metcalf, who was the operations director of inventory base. And for any of our listeners who don't know, inventory Base is a property platform that streamlines property inspections and management tasks. But I'm going to let Sian tell you a little bit more about that in a minute. Sian has quite a presence in our sector as an advisory panel member on Arla Propertymark and an ambassador to the property mark Trust. So, a very busy lady, thank you very much for giving up your time today. Let's get started. Sian, please introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us a little bit more about yourself.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: Lovely. Well, thanks ever so much for inviting me in the first place. It's great to talk to you and to everybody that's listening. So, my name is Sian. I'm from inventory base. I've been with inventory base for around about six years. Years. Six, seven years now. I was actually doing some consultancy work beforehand because I actually was a user. I did that Victor Cayenne bit where I was a user beforehand. Liked the product so much, I didn't buy it. I haven't got that much money. But certainly I decided I wanted to use the software at the time. I was looking for something that would scour with me, and I was finding, you know, products and software just wasn't doing it for me. And that's how comes I started talking to them. And I kind of, like, probably bullied them into giving me a job and a role purely because I kept on saying, we did this, we did that. Because obviously, being an inventory professional myself, I know what it's like to get close and personal. As I say to the tarmac, I know what it's like to be in a grotty property. I nearly said grotty potty there. That's one of the awards to our clerks every year who gets a grotty potty award for the worst toilet ever.
And it was a case of, well, I was coming up with ideas and I wanted to do more. And I could see we could do more in the sector, which is why I started infantry based academy and started training clerks and property managers and it kind of spilled from there and we've got more involved and I've been really, really done work really well in regards to, you know, working my way up through the company. And now I'm operations director. So it kind of like means I get to tell everybody what to do, which is great because, you know, that's what I like. I'm a mum, you know, everybody has to do what I tell them, which is brilliant. I'm always happy about that. And. Yes, so it's a case of it's just kind of grown from there. And the good thing about it is the fact that I'm growing with the sector. So every single day I'm learning something, I'm enjoying what I'm doing and I'm meeting, as you said, such a raft of people within the industry, which is why I've been able to do some work in regards to the ambassador for the property mark Trust, which is something I never really knew about. It's something that I didn't actually know existed up until I started talking to John Oakley one time at an exhibition and realized how much support was there, but people just didn't know how to access it.
[00:03:20] Speaker A: Tell us, what is an ambassador to the property mark trust? What do you do?
[00:03:24] Speaker B: So one of the things they do is raise awareness about the trust of what they're about. The fact that they're there to not only help with the mental health and wellbeing of property mark members, it's not just for them, it's also for their families. It's for that bigger, wider community, which obviously is huge in our industry. You think we've got 17 and a half, 18,000 letting agents in the industry. And so therefore there's a raft of people that at one point or another will need some help, but also they help with training, they'll give them bursaries and just generally helping people navigate the industry, certainly when it gets a little bit tough. And we've all known that in what I call the pre Covid years and post Covid years, we've had to go through a lot. So of course they've been really instrumental, but a lot of people didn't know about it. So it's really nice to get involved with not just me, so many ambassadors out there now that are really helping to kind of raise awareness. And that's why we've got the PropX exhibition, which event rather, which is 20 September.
[00:04:22] Speaker A: Yes, so we're attending that we're very excited to, and actually, I think it's going to be great because it sounds like a totally different event to other events that have kind of been out there. We might get a chance to talk about that later. And before we go back and talk a little bit more about you, let's just kind of talk about inventory based a little bit more and just explain to everybody exactly what you could do for them. If I was the lessing agent thinking, oh, I've had it up to here with inventory checks or mid tenancy check ins or whatever, how could you help? How could you help me?
[00:04:55] Speaker B: I think one of the key elements that inventory base delivers, literally day in, day out, is the ability to give you time back. It's a laborious process. It takes time. You've got to be physically at the proper property for a lot of the reports, not all, but a lot of them. Certainly when you're doing check ins, doing interims, inventories, and checkouts, but you can also do some that are live inspections and tenant self service. But that takes time, that takes expertise. You've got to spend the time looking at the property. And that in itself is not something that is necessarily generating revenue for you as an agent. You know, it's not increasing your pipeline, but what it is doing is maintaining the pipeline and keeping it compliant, obviously tenants happy, and also landlords. So our software helps you do that. It helps streamline the reporting process, puts it into a much more manageable route of travel in regards to the type of tasks and events that you need to deal with. So that's from starting the report to managing actions in regards to issues and maintenance, talking to the tenants, and obviously building and collecting the information and material you need for when it comes to the end of the tenancy. So deposit disputes, although there's only 1% that goes to actual dispute, we would take out the end of tenancy protocols and routes of travel. It would be a lot, lot higher. So it shows you that tech is really, really helping with that. And certainly with infantry base, what we're doing is we're not only just looking at those kind of tasks, but also looking broader. What else do you do in the letting agent in order to generate revenue? So that could be risk assessments, legionary risk assessments, eicrs, gas safety, etcetera. So it's all part and parcel that, just to make that journey easier, more simple, more cost efficient, and give you time back.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: And you have inventory clerks all over the country.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: So we have got a hybrid approach. So we don't actually employ infantry cars, but what we do do is we enable them to work together and other suppliers and also landlords and agents who are work streams network. So work streams basically is a platform within our system where people can come in, they can send a job out to the system and say to ABC inventories for want of a better name, and say, okay, I want this job done on such and such a day. It's a three bedroom property.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: They like a dating service, like a matching service.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: Yeah, it's very much the matches every. But the good thing about it is you know who you'll be matched with. The people that are on there are the insured. They have a quality of report that because they can only get on the network once they've gone through that, to make sure that whatever they're delivering is of a quality that will protect the asset, protect the landlord, and importantly protect the landlord tenant. Sorry. So it's all part parcel of that process. And when that person decides, yeah, that's the person I want to work with, supplier, they can then talk to them. Do the reports, have the reports handed back. And that could be supply branded or it could be buy branded, that is white label. So there's a lot of flexibility in the system. So instead of having you to just rely on maybe in house resources or external, you've got a hybrid approach to be able to do both. And that means you can pivot change, especially during the summer periods where we know it gets a bit manic and sometimes you need a bit more of a hand than maybe you do during the winter months.
[00:08:06] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you've just got somebody off, I guess, or, you know, you've got a gap, a skills gap, then you've got options available, haven't you? That's kind of the day job, but the old day job used to be quite different and I'm really interested to hear about this. So my understanding is for more than a couple decade, you were working in the prison service. Prison officer, working up all the way to prison governor. Tell us a little bit about that. And then why the change?
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, so. Oh, God. So I started my journey into the services in 1991, which makes me feel really, really old, especially as my youngest son just turned 29 yesterday. Now I'm really feeling it. And I started out nothing by necessarily as a career choice. It was more of a, you know, it was, it sounded good, but I actually started working in admin, so I wasn't even in uniform at that time. But then what happened was I liked what was happening in uniform, I liked to see what was going on, I liked the people element, that is the fact that you could help people and. But I didn't really understand it. So I trained, I passed all the exams, passed all the tests, etcetera, and went into uniform. And then I spent the first ten years effectively what we call working on the landing. So that is working with prisoners day in, day out in their accommodation, also where they work in regards to vocational work, educational, etcetera, and really like learning my craft, learning how to help people, but also manage people, because obviously there's an element of that everything in a prison is done through both sides agreeing to work together, because obviously if one side won't, then the other side won't as well, so there's a lot of communication needed. So, and that's really stood me in very good stead for what I'm doing now. And then, you know, after about ten years where I felt comfortable and capable of doing my job, I then started working up my way through the ranks. So, you know, for people who not, maybe you've seen the prison service you go through as it was then, because old money is now changed and everything has become much more corporate. But certainly when I was in, it was prison officer so Po and then a governor grade, which is where I ended up my career. And I worked in a variety of different prisons, mostly male. I did my training in female, but I did all my prisons in mal estates. And then when I got to about last seven years or so, I then went up into what head office, which is now known as the Ministry of Justice. So I was dealing with portfolios, decommissioning prisons, that sort of thing.
[00:10:32] Speaker A: Wow, what a career. So what then made you, after all of that, get into property?
[00:10:39] Speaker B: Right? So there is a correlation because most people go to, how the hell did you go from one to the other? So at that time and during my career, I was often moving around, often because that was work related or just because of personal circumstances. But I did move prisons quite a lot and part parcel, that meant that, you know, I didn't always need to, I didn't want to actually, you know, change my house or buy a new house, etc. So I rented my, my property and then during my rental experience, and I put that in very big inverted commas, I found there's some really big failings in the system, mainly because I experienced them. So I experienced damage, I experienced issues with payment and certainly at the end of the tenancy, the deposit return and the damage that was left in the property was immense, and I found that the property report did not cover me. It didn't help me, it didn't do anything that it was meant to do. In fact, it was pointless. It really was. So I had an opportunity in the latter part of my career where I could leave the service and start out a new career, or I could have stayed where I was and I just felt it was time for me to make a change. I felt I'd done it as much as I wanted to do and I wanted to do something different. And because I had that experience, I knew that this could be done better. And one of my previous roles within the service was compliance and working Her Majesty's inspectorate. So I understand that kind of level of scrutiny and legislation that we need to adhere to. So to me, it wasn't such a big jump as many people would see. In fact, I felt it was a natural change for me.
[00:12:12] Speaker A: Some really transferable skills, 100%. And especially to operations, I guess, in terms of managing, well, you know, some quite difficult situations at times, actually, in operations, isn't it? It's not all plain sailing.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I mean, I've had some situations where I've actually kind of like, you know, for want of a better word, ordered a landlord and a tenant out the property because they were busy having a go at each other. And I can't concentrate when I'm doing that. I'm trying to do my job there as a clerk. Yeah. Because, you know, I'm self taught. I learned it from the ground up and figured it all out myself. And so having someone then shout and scream at each other and poking, you know, pointing fingers and everything. So it got to the point where I actually had to be quite stern with them and tell them to leave, which they promptly did. But that was because I was used to. I mean, my previous prison, I was managing anything up to 600 staff and 1600 prisoners. So a couple of people arguing, it's not really going to faze me too much, but it made them stop and leave. So that was really, really good.
Yeah. And so that's really stood me in good stead, because then I can help people be a little bit more assertive within the industry, because sometimes I think people tend to look at, as a service provider, you just got to say yes to everything, you've got to agree to everything, and you can never say no. And doesn't matter what gets thrown at, you've got to take it. And actually, that is not the case. I think, you know, as business which is what we are. We're a service provider, but we're equally a business. And then as a business, you've got to look after your business, your overheads and your staff. And part past that is managing the expectations of the client. And so hopefully, some of the training that I do around that will help budding either inventory providers or managers be able to, you know, manage those kind of situations a little bit more robustly without being rude. We've been being respectful, but certainly helping them to take control of that situation as opposed to that situation controlling them.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: So over the last kind of six or seven years in your kind of new career, as it were, what's kind of been the biggest changes, maybe the proudest moments, kind of the things that you. That are, are the standout points for you.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: Oh, I think there's been a definite shift in the quality of reports. When I first started, you know, like I said, when I had that experience myself, the quality report was absolutely dire. And I didn't know that because I'd never experienced that before. It was completely new to me. And when I finally realized, it was like, no, this can be done better. And I've certainly seen a shift in that. I've seen a definite shift in how property managers and landlords see inventory reports.
I think it needs to shift further. I think there's still a disconnect between what the report does that is protecting the asset and protecting the deposit, as opposed to a nice to have document, which is kind of how it's always looked. I think we're dealing with a lot more legislation, a lot more oversight, which I always knew was coming, because governments are what they are. They are compliance driven. They want what they want, and we effectively got to dance to their tune. But my background has always been, okay, well, I've got this legislation I've got to adhere to, so how do I make it work? And that, I think, is where we're starting to see a shift in the industry, because with the tenant feedback, we knew that there was going to be problems. We knew that it wasn't going to be particularly comfortable, but equally wasn't as bad as what we thought it would be. Didn't have that seismic change that a lot of people feared. But I, I remember then at that time, I was there advising agents, and I'm not talking small agents, you know, like just the one person kind of outfits like corporates who should really have had the mechanisms and the, and the training in place to advise them. And they're advising on how the tenant fee ban worked what they could and couldn't do because they just weren't getting that kind of information. So in a way, answering your question about, you know, what's the proudest moment? I think that is a real proud moment because that then showed that as providers, as professionals, we have so much more to give over and above doing report, collecting keys and handing over a PDF, because the wealth of experience we were able to tap into, and I think that showed a lot of work within the industry.
[00:16:20] Speaker A: Do you use video at all now? Are you allowed to use video for inventories?
[00:16:26] Speaker B: You are, but the problem with doing a video inventory, and funny enough, I started out doing that, it's really difficult to do. If you need a moment, I don't know, comfort break or something distracts you. It's really difficult when you've got to have a continuous dialogue. And actually you might find this bit weird, but I actually had to teach myself how to dictate because I didn't know how to do it and I would get stumbled, I'd look at doors and handles and go, I know what you are, but I can't remember what the hell you are. And if you're video, of course your video is going continuously on and on and on, and your time is going on, but you're not saying a thing, you're not moving, you're not doing anything because your head's stuck. So it's quite a discipline just to even learn to do that. But I find a video, it can be limiting, but where it does really add value is when it comes to compliance. And I'm talking about smoke alarms and carbon monoxide alarms, because now at the moment, take a picture, you basically state, yes, it's emitting an audible tone. I never use the word working, because working conjures up a whole different raft of issues. Can I hear a tone? Yes. Can I see a light? Yeah, they're fact.
When you video it, you can not only see it, but you can then hear it. Then you've got your evidence.
And I've been in a doc, both as a doc officer and as someone in front of judges in regards to evidence, and it's a difficult place to be. And we will end up more in those kind of courtroom settings than we do at the moment, purely because of the way legislation and changes are being made. So therefore, if you've got irrefutable evidence through video, then that takes a lot of the argument away. You don't have to explain yourself or then say, no, this is what it was.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: It's just such different world, isn't it? Because I think I'd hate someone to come a video my house, like, do.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: You know what I mean?
[00:18:16] Speaker A: And like have a little, have a little look around. But I guess it's, it's just, it does feel a bit like that, doesn't it? And for some reason the pictures feels better.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: I don't know why, even with pictures, you can only take so much. Otherwise you literally have to stand there and from a single spot and go round, round, round around, you have to make sure you take every single square inch. That's where professionalism comes in. That is where you use your understanding, your expertise to be able to explain the pictures, etcetera. But I think certainly video has place, and certainly for context is absolutely brilliant to give you a mind's eye of what the property looks like, even walkthroughs. But I think if you were to rely on the detail, you know, getting down into an oven, down into a toilet, around a corner, into those nooks and crannies, or where those issues might exist, is a lot more difficult. So I think it's a case of making sure we purpose the tech that we've got for the right things and understanding that.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: So when we launched our previous podcast series, two of the kind of topics that have seemed to got lots of attention are about pets in property, and also about women actually in property. Not that there's a link there at all. So I'm going to ask you about both those things now. So you'll remember a while ago, we obviously held a pets and lets forum, and you kindly attended, and to help us with that. But what has been your experience of obviously pets in property? Like, when you're going around doing inventories, are pets more of a problem than children? Are pets really a problem at all? Like, do people genuinely try and hide them? Do you see, like, you know, a higher percentage of pets than probably is declared? About 10%. Like what?
Give us some insight.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: So I've had experiences right across that spectrum. Literally every single point you just made, I've had experience of. So I've had experience where I've gone in and the pet is there and you can't, there's no smell. I'm not a dog person, I'm a cat person. So immediately when I go into a property, I can tell whether a dog's been in there. Equally, I can tell whether a cat's been in there, especially if they found a little spot in the corner and that's their own little area for peeing and stuff like that, especially if they haven't been neutered, you know, so you get a really good, keen sense of smell. And a sense of smell again, you can't pick that up through a picture or for a video. This is where your expertise really comes into play. But I've had instance where I've gone in and there's been dogs I wouldn't have known. The property's been clean, the dogs have been very well kept. Everything's been fine. I've had a flat where there's a great big cage in the middle of the room. They had chinchillas. They've never cleaned it. The smell was awful, the mess was awful. And then they left it for the. For the landlord to deal with. And they didn't leave the pet, but they certainly left all the. The mess and that went with it equally. I've had a situation where I had a landlord absolutely sobbing in front of me where they've gone back into their property. A beautiful four, five bedroom house. Gorgeous when we first did it, and they had a couple of Alsatians in there and they had free roam in the house. They chewed the stairs, banisters, they weed all up the carpet on the. On the landing. And then in some of the rooms, which are clearly children's rooms, there was excrement all on the walls, on the skirting, etcetera. And the landlord, the smell. My previous role, I've dealt with that kind of thing on a human level. So for me, it wasn't so bad. But they couldn't cope. They couldn't cope with the smell. They were absolutely sobbing because this is their home, you know, at the end of the day, I know you rent it out and I know you have to kind of, like, put aside some of those feelings, but when you're a single landlord, or an accidental landlord, as we often will call them, it's not so easy to kind of like, you know, take that emotion out and to see them see their house so badly looked after, enshrouding all the work and the smell. I mean, it was literally. It was what we used to say in the service. Back on the throat. You could chew on it. It's that bad.
[00:22:03] Speaker A: It's amazing how people can actually live like that, though, isn't it? Like, it's all very well leaving it for the landlord for whatever reason, you know, obviously not at all. Okay.
But actually living in that day to day, that's the bonkers bit to me.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: It is. It is awful. And we've seen it where people also, and this is where interim inspections really come, so not interim inspection because I always find inspections kind of almost like I'm kind of pointing at you. So I'm going to inspect you again. It feels intrusive, but if you were to do it. So interim property visit or maintenance or management visit, many times you come across people that haven't been coping and it's not because they've done anything wrong, they're just not coping. Covid really threw that out, especially from a children point of view, but also from a pet point of view because they couldn't afford them. A lot of people got pets and then they realized, actually, do you know what? I can't afford them, but I don't want to get rid of them. And they kind of cope, but they don't, if you see what I mean.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: And then, of course then someone's got to pick up those pieces. And you've seen that certainly from how many pets end up going into sheltered homes, you know, tobacco, sea, etcetera, because of that. And, you know, that's always sad because it's not because the person doesn't care, it's just they can't. But without visits, you wouldn't necessarily know. And sometimes you only know until they've left. And by that time, as you said, how could they have lived in there? But you can imagine what it must have been like and how bad it was for them. And I don't know many people that would choose to be that way. A lot of it is through circumstance. So there's a wide variety of towels, etc. Where that has happened, but you've also got those that will basically just damage and not care and just do whatever they want and just walk out. There's a whole mixture. So I think we can never do a one size fits all kind of policy. We've got to look at it individually, we've got to put safeguards in place. Has already been muted in regards to insurance policies, but obviously tenant fee ban act really kind of holds us down to a certain level of ability of what we can and can't do. But then if we have the changes that have been muted over the years, then maybe we'll see some more flexibility being brought in.
[00:24:08] Speaker A: Yeah, and. Exactly. And I, and I think that, you know, we obviously very much welcome that because, you know, as much as we support pets in, let, we support it on the basis that there is that protection for a landlord. So in the scenario of the, you know, the four, four or five bed house that you talked about, at least the landlord would have had insurance, at least they would have had protection, at least they would have had someone to call to come and sort it out. And I think that that makes all the difference.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: Absolutely. And certainly, you know, even with the pets in regards to insurances and stuff like that, I think one element that gets missed, and I know we talked about it at your forum at your offices, was about, you know, what also happens to the pet themselves. What about their welfare? What about how they're cared for? You couldn't have a great Dane in a student bedroom on the HMO. It would not be fair. So we've got to have that element, we've got to have that balance. And the argument then is, well, who then makes those decisions? And that's where I think a lot of the kind of crosswords and lack of movement forward comes in.
[00:25:13] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about you again now. So you have been a really strong advocate for gender equality in prop tech, property industry. And looking at your own journey, what progress have you seen? I guess for women in senior roles, do you think there's more work needed? Are we moving on?
Where's your assessment of how we've progressed right now?
[00:25:37] Speaker B: I think we've definitely seen better progression in regards to both females in the industry. And funny enough, the service industry, from my point of view, as the inventory professionals, is more male orientated. And I always thought it would be the other way around, but it's not. But I'm certainly seeing a progression, certainly with the agents, seeing more females coming into management roles, being seen for their skills, for their expertise, as opposed to how good do they look in the window? And I'm sorry, but that has been a perception. Sometimes you walk into an agent and first person you'll see is someone who looks very glamorous and everything else, and it's been purposely orchestrated that way, as opposed to someone who's really good and knowledgeable they're doing. And that's always been such a disservice to women in the industry is how they're perceived.
And I've seen it happen. I've been in offices where I've seen that, where the female has been passed by the landlord and by the tenors and gone straight to the male because for some reason they think that that person knows more than what the female does. And I know that that female knows so, so much more. You know, she's more than capable. So I think I've seen a better shift in that regard. And also in regards to gender equality in regards to how we work with, you know, people who are transgender, people who are part of the lgbt community. I mean, one of the things that I absolutely love about infantry base is our inclusivity. And we.
We get people coming in from the universities, and we've got such a mixture of male, female, transgender people who are transitioning, people who are just recognized for who and what they want to be, as opposed to the labels that we give them. And I like that inclusivity because it means that we're concentrating on the work and their expertise as opposed to what they look like and what pronoun they want to use. So it makes such a huge difference. And I'm seeing that, and I'm seeing that come up more and more and more in the industry. I think there's still a lot more work to be done, and I think certainly the work being done by property Mark, by Megan, by angrade, by Sophie, and all of the other wonderful females within the property industry that are really forging ahead and saying, no, I'm here because I'm bloody good at what I do. I've got something important to say, and they're getting people to listen to them. And, you know, I'm really heartened by it.
[00:28:06] Speaker A: Absolutely. I wondered then, how important do you feel personal brand is and whether this is something that you've worked on deliberately or has been part of any strategy or has just kind of happened over time?
[00:28:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I think personal brand is really, really important. And, no, it's not something that I actually consciously have ever done because my previous role. You didn't have a brand. You weren't a person in your own right. You were part and parcel of a service. So therefore, you fulfilled the role that you were in at the time. Whereas now I've had to learn that. I've had to learn my tone of voice. I've had to learn what it is that I want to be and be seen as. And one of the things that I've really, really worked hard on is to make sure that whatever I do, I say it's because I believe in it, I understand it, I've researched it. And I can not necessarily argue my point, but certainly put a point across that is well researched. It's not just an opinion. I've spent time looking at it and to understand it so that hopefully, when people talk to me or when I train them, when I offer an opinion, it's because it's based on a real, true feeling of understanding where they're coming from, what I think, you know, maybe they should be concentrating on looking at or giving them advice, but also on the, on the level that just because I give that doesn't mean they have to take it. This is very much a case of, you know, working with and in partnership with, as opposed to being the person saying, well, you need to do this or you need to do that. Yeah. So hopefully people see that in me and how I work with them.
[00:29:33] Speaker A: And have you very much found yourself kind of offering advice to younger people? I guess I'm going to say younger, but, you know, it might not even be younger. Like, to help them along their way and to explain that, you know, give them the confidence to be whoever they want to be.
[00:29:49] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And like, you're about to allude to. Yeah. Younger and older. You know, just because I'm the age that I am, obviously I've got some age behind me, bearing in mind I've got a 34 year old and a 29 year old. However, it doesn't mean I know everything and I don't, you know, I have got and work with a fabulous team at inventory based, and recently we've been expanding their team. We've got teams and my support team that work in South Africa, and I learn something from them every single day because we don't, it's not me telling them, it's us working together.
And hopefully I can impart some of my experience over the years and certainly what I can draw from. But equally, I'm also looking to them, you know, what do you know? Because you're looking at it from a completely different standpoint, from maybe a different country, different region where there's laws and different ways of working that I don't necessarily know of, that I could then take some of that and go, do you know what? That works really well. So I think it's certainly from my own point of view, hopefully I'm open. And just because I think something doesn't necessarily mean it's right. And as long as I'm open to hearing from other people and using that to mix in with my own understanding and ideals and then build what I, you call as a brand, then, you know, that stands being good stead. And hopefully people will understand that that is how I can then help them because I don't necessarily try and fix things. What I try and do is get them to understand what it is that they're trying to achieve and help them to achieve it, as opposed to me just giving them the answer. Just go do a, b or C. I want them to find a, B and C. So hopefully my instructions help them with that.
[00:31:22] Speaker A: Okay, thank you. And good luck with the propex event, because I know that's happening in September. If anyone hasn't bought a ticket, you should go and have a look about it. We did a podcast last season, all about it, so go and. Go and research it up. But thank you very much, sian, for today. Before you go, it's become a very regular feature and one of the best bits of the podcast at the very end, where we ask every guest for a funny story or anecdote.
[00:31:53] Speaker B: Okie dokey. So I had a couple in my head, but I think the one that kind of, like, stands out most, and people may or may not know him. Have you ever heard of Charlie Bronson? He's quite.
Yeah, so he was in one of my jails, I won't say which one. And I had to be honest with you, he was very, very nice to myself and my team and was always very polite, very, very amenable, which you don't always get that kind of viewpoint when you look in the press, etcetera. And he used to make my tea. Wow. So there you go. So, you know, hard and fast criminal. But he was really good. And I'll tell you something, he's a great artist. And he actually did a picture from my friend, and she still got it to this day, you know, and he was absolutely lovely. And, you know, from that point of view. But, you know, there were still challenges. But, you know, the fact that he made my tea, and to be honest with you, it was really nice. It was really good cup of tea.
[00:32:51] Speaker A: Did you find yourself getting quite connected, if that's the right word, to kind of some of the people that you. That you kind of looked after in the prison service?
[00:33:01] Speaker B: It's difficult not to, but there's something that was called conditioning, where you can go from being connected to being literally taken over and emotionally attached, and that's when you've got problems. So it used to be that we used to have training, called conditional training, where you would learn the signs of that. You know, someone gives you something and then all of a sudden they want something back. And then that time, it becomes bigger and bigger and bigger, and you've got to be so, so, so careful. But of course, you touch to people, because the end of the day, you're there to help. You're there to support. One of the things I used to do is teach cognitive therapy training. So to help stop the recidivism, they stop their. I. What they were trying to do in regards to their offending behavior and get them to see through a twelve step program how to not offend. So of course you get invested. And I mean, I had one particular offender or prisoner who I watched it as these twin girls were born and then grew up to about three years old. So of course, every time I used to see them in the visits area, I knew who they were, they knew who I was. And it was lovely to see, you know, obviously take away the element of where their dad was, but the fact is they were growing up to be really beautiful little girls, very well behaved and mannered. And you could see that, you know, some things, sometimes you end up in places like a prison, not because of you've done something on purpose, but, you know, circumstances have arisen that you've ended up there. So it doesn't necessarily mean then you can't be treated as a human being and you should be. So, you know, you get attached in that kind of respect. But there's always an element of, well, this is the dividing line. This is where I stand. This is where you stand because you need that from a respect point of view. Otherwise, like I said earlier on, you wouldn't be able to do the day to day things that you need to do to be able to get people to work, educate and basically move them through the system.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: And you can see how those people's skills, you know, become so transferable to many workplaces, but especially our industry. So thank you so much, Sian.
And to ensure all of our listeners never miss an episode of let's Talk, let's please follow us on Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast, please leave us a review. And thank you all very much for listening. Have a good week. Let's talk.
[00:35:10] Speaker B: Let's.
[00:35:11] Speaker A: An original podcast from the Lettings Hub.
